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Caroline Dettman

In this episode of The Art of Sway, host Danielle Wiley sits down with Caroline Dettman, the Chief Marketing Officer and Chief Creative Officer at The Female Quotient. Caroline shares her fascinating journey from aspiring to be a trial attorney to finding her true passion in advertising and marketing. She also discusses her role in the Dove Real Beauty campaign at Edelman and her dedication to gender equity, which led her to found Have Her Back Consulting, a firm that champions authenticity and equity in the workplace.

At The Female Quotient, Caroline focuses on advancing women in professional settings, partnering with major companies to raise women’s profiles and discuss gender equality at important conferences and events. The episode also delves into Caroline’s personal experiences as a working mother during the pandemic, highlighting the challenges and changes in parenting, and emphasizing the need for flexibility in the workplace. Caroline and Danielle wrap up the conversation by reflecting on the influence of media and pop culture on gender equity, and the importance of authenticity and vulnerability in leadership and social media.

Don’t miss this insightful Art of Sway episode to hear Caroline Dettman’s empowering story of career evolution, her commitment to gender equity, and the delicate balance of motherhood and professional life. Her experiences offer a fascinating look at the impact of strong female leadership in the marketing industry — and the significance of staying true to oneself.

Episode 49: Caroline Dettman

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Danielle Wiley: Welcome to The Art of Sway, the podcast that uncovers the power of influence and its impact on all areas of our lives. I’m your host, Danielle Wiley. Each week, we’ll explore the many facets of influence through candid conversations with industry insiders, from brand marketers to social workers, educators, leaders, and more. Let’s dive in. Caroline Dettman is the chief marketing officer and chief creative officer at The Female Quotient, where she leverages her creative craft for branding, marketing, and communications that inspire actions to advance women in the workplace. The FQ is a woman-owned business that creates experiences, media and solutions to drive visibility and connections for women and companies at a global scale. With a growing community of two million conscious leaders and partners, including Proctor and Gamble, NBC Universal, LinkedIn, and Deloitte, the FQ is unequal in the business of equality. Prior to joining the FQ, Dettman co-founded Have Her Back Consulting, where she worked with companies, including Hyatt and McDonald’s, to tackle equity for all differently and authentically. Fast Company featured Dettman and HHB on its most innovative global companies list in 2022. Before becoming an entrepreneur, Dettman spent 20-plus years as a creative leader in marketing and communications. She also serves on United Voices Chicago’s executive board, a globally renowned nonprofit that seeks to create a harmonious world, changing the lives of diverse youth through the power of music. Carolyn and I worked together for years at Edelman, and whenever I showed up to a meeting at which she was in attendance, I knew that things were going to get fun. She is an amazing creative mind, and since leaving the traditional agency space, she has dedicated her career to elevating the careers of other women in the field. She’s also an inspiration as a working mom, never shying away from sharing real stories about what it’s like to parent, while navigating a high stress career. I loved catching up with Carolyn, and I loved our conversation. I hope you enjoy, as well.

Hi, and welcome.

Caroline Dettman: So good to be here with you.

Danielle Wiley: I was just saying, it’s strange to see you on a Zoom, and not sitting across a giant conference room on the 63rd Floor, but we will adjust.

Caroline Dettman: Yeah, we will adjust.

Danielle Wiley: I can handle it.

Caroline Dettman: The world has adjusted, it’s forced us to adjust, and the Zoom thing’s pretty cool, because we get to do things like this.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah, so good. Okay, so I’ll just jump right in, but we can keep jumping out and catching up throughout. So I wanted to start, we worked together for years at Edelman, and you were there when I got there, and I don’t know, it wasn’t exactly a conducive environment for sitting down like, “Tell me how you got here, what’s your journey?” But this is. I’d love to hear. I never knew. We’re going to get into what you’re doing now, and I want to spend most of our time talking about that, but would love to talk a little bit just about how you ended up in general, in the big agency space.

Caroline Dettman: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of us, at least in our time, it was sort of a happy accident, and it certainly was for me. So I grew up absolutely knowing what I was going to be, and do, and I was going to be a trial attorney. I didn’t really have that much interest in the law, but my father was a criminal trial attorney, so I grew up in New York City, watching him and do his trials and his summations, and it was just very dramatic and interesting to me. I always thought, like a movie, I would be a prosecuting trial attorney, and come up against him in court, and it would be like this whole thing. So that’s what I was always going to do. When I went to college, everyone who was want to be aspiring attorney, they all majored in poli sci, but my father told me, “You know what? If you want to be a trial attorney that’s not going to help you. Major in acting.”

Danielle Wiley: Interesting.

Caroline Dettman: Interesting, and not wrong. But as I thought about it, in case the law thing didn’t work out. I didn’t want to be an actor. So I was trying to think of, well, what he really wanted was to, he wanted storytelling. He wanted me to be able to tell a proper story, and to use storytelling to be persuasive. That’s really what he was looking for, so advertising and marketing really fit that bill. As a major that I didn’t think I would ever really probably use, but thought would be good as a fallback, I ended up doing that, and I really liked it, but still had thought I was going to do the attorney thing. And then after, unfortunately, I took the LSAT, my dad sat me down yet again, and we were really tight, and he looked like he was in pain about to tell me something, and I thought he was going to tell me he was sick, or something horrible. But actually, he took a really big deep breath, and he said, “I’ve got to tell you this before you invest, and take long doubt for law school,” he says, “I wouldn’t wish this career on my worst enemy.” He’s like, “I kept hoping you would sort of find a different path, but here we are, and you’re going to commit to this. I just feel like I have to tell you that.” And it was a big dramatic pause, and I went, “Oh my God, what am I going to do now?” I was sort of very, very tunnel vision on it, but I also knew that he wouldn’t steer me wrong, and I really trusted him. So my fallback, which I never thought I was going to fall back on, became my fallback. I remember going to my advisor at school, and saying, “What should I be doing?” She was like, “You know what? I have a marketing and advertising internship in New York, which is where I live.” She’s like, “Why don’t you try that? That’s what you’ve been studying.” I said, “Okay.” That’s what I did, and found out I really loved it, and I could use all that storytelling, and just do it for brands, and not for people’s lives, which is a little bit more fun.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah, and less lower stakes. I remember. I mean, it doesn’t always seem that way. I remember, I don’t know if you remember Erin Shea, but she used to come into my office, and someone would be freaking out about something, and she would be like, “It’s PR, not ER. No one’s dying. Why are we all so crazy?”

Caroline Dettman: It is silly. I even said that earlier today. My best friend from high school, she is a doctor, and when she has a bad day, it’s a really bad day.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah.

Caroline Dettman: And I always have to kind of remind myself that, that we’re pretty lucky getting to do what we do.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah, yeah, we are. Okay, so moving into the fun and exciting stuff that you’re doing now, because we have obviously both moved on from those days at Edelman. So you are now chief marketing and creative officer at The Female Quotient, and before that, you were founding partner at Have Her Back Consulting. So, would love to hear, and I know a little bit about it, just from reading your LinkedIn posts, and kind of getting this ambient awareness of what’s going on, but we’d love to just hear directly from you what inspired this pivot to gender equity consulting and activism, and why you decided to make that move from more standard agency life, to making a change in agency life?

Caroline Dettman: Yeah, well, absolutely. I mean, I mentioned my father and I think part of what he did instill in me though is fighting for the underdog in many ways. So there’s that piece of it, but I think it really is, I haven’t mentioned my mom. My mom was such a big influence on me, from a gender equity standpoint. She started her career as a TWA stewardess, when they called them stewardesses, and was weighed, I think it was once a week.

Danielle Wiley: Oh, my gosh.

Caroline Dettman: Which I understand, not TWA, obviously, but there are some overseas airlines that actually still do that. She went from that, to quitting that, getting married, having kids, putting herself back through college, and becoming a CPA accountant, and finished her career as a vice president at Citibank. And I’m like, “Who has that career trajectory,” right?

Danielle Wiley: Yeah.

Caroline Dettman: But what was just very interesting about watching her in that, all the struggles, and you would think, being a stewardess back in those days would be really difficult, and what you would have to deal with, but we are pretty open with each other, and come to find out that what she was dealing with back in the ’70s, we were dealing with back in the days we were starting, and still do. And so that was an unfortunate conversation. I also think, well, as it relates to my mom, and this is the best story ever, and this’ll take me a second, but I was six years old. She took me to go see Grease. It was my first adult movie, I was six, but I thought, “Oh, my God, this is the most amazing thing I’ve ever seen.” And all the innuendos and all that obviously went right over my head.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah, it went over all of our heads.

Caroline Dettman: Went over all of our heads, and I just walked out of there, thinking, “Oh, my God, I was so grown up, and I was singing the songs, and if I could only be Sandy,” and I just had the experience of my life. And my mom pulled me over before we got in the car, and she said, she was pointing down at me, she’s like, “Caroline, she’s like, you need to understand something.” I’m looking up at her, I’m like, “What is she going to say?” And she says, and I’ll never forget it. She goes, “Never change for a man.” I mean, I was six years old. So I mean, that’s just funny. But also, it actually really did stick with me. So I just think that they’ve had a big influence on me. And then, I think, my career choice, because I really kind of went down that more creative path, I often found myself in rooms with men who really lead and still, to some degree, do, mainly lead the creative culture at agencies. (10:55): So whether it was up in pitches, or whether it was all AOR agency teams, whatever it was, it was like the guys, when I would watch Mad Men, I would get PTSD. I couldn’t watch it.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah.

Caroline Dettman: Because that still is very much the way it is. So that was always just a frustration for me. When I became a chief creative officer, I was a relative unicorn. I mean, there were some, but not many. That was right around the time of Me Too, and Trump and I made the mistake of not posting a Me Too story at the time. I think people made an assumption that it was because, maybe I didn’t have a story to tell, when in fact, I was overwhelmed. I had so many stories I could tell, that I didn’t even know where to start. I was overwhelmed by it. So I posted that, it made me angry, and I was looking around and going, “You know what? I can use my craft of creative storytelling, and inspiring change, that doesn’t necessarily involve inspiring people to go buy shampoo, or a piece of clothing, or what have you. But could I use that same craft to inspire human behavior change, to really help advance women?” And that’s really, at the end of the day, what I thought I could potentially do. And having worked at Edelman, and having worked on the Dove campaign, when it first started, the Real Beauty campaign, I felt like it was achievable. So that’s what really pushed me in that direction.

Danielle Wiley: I love it. I was just thinking through all of my … I mean, hear my aunt worked at Chase Bank, probably around the same time your mom was at Citibank, back in the day, and just the stories she would tell, about men coming over to her desk, and putting their hand on her leg, and you feel like that’s so far off. But then, I think about my own story. I’ve had male bosses come up, and put their hands on, my massage my shoulders, or make an inappropriate comment. In some ways, you feel like we’ve come so far, and then, I don’t … In a lot of ways we haven’t.

Caroline Dettman: Yeah, and I think what’s crazy to me is, I think back in the old days, you could say, “Well, that was unconscious.” It was like habitual, it was unconscious.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah.

Caroline Dettman: Now, any time anyone says, “Oh, that’s unconscious bias,” it’s like, “No, no, no. It’s very conscious at this point.”

Danielle Wiley: Right.

Caroline Dettman: People know that that’s not the right behavior. You can’t call it unconscious. It’s very, very intentional and conscious, and yet it still happens. So it’s an interesting world that we live in right now.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah. It is, it is. So I’d love for you to tell us more about The Female Quotient, which is where you’re at now. And I see, again, just keep seeing all of it through the lens of LinkedIn, and excited to hear about it directly from you. What’s your mission? What are you guys doing? What are you accomplishing? Tell us all of it.

Caroline Dettman: Oh yeah, I mean, listen. I couldn’t be more excited, and feel very, very fortunate. I joined The Female Quotient a year ago, but they’ve been a part of my growing up journey. So I can tell you a little bit about that. But first and foremost, kind of who they are, what we do, and our mission, we are an engine of equality. And how we are an engine of equality is, we work to advance women in the workplace. And we work with Fortune 500 companies very closely, in order to do that. But I think what’s so important, and what the FQ has done really well, and very different than, I think, a lot of different organizations, a couple things. One, we are about raising women’s profiles and visibility. So the way that the FQ started was, Shelly Zalis, our founder, she was in marketing and advertising. She was a researcher, and she was a very pioneering researcher. So she would find herself at CSN, KMN, the big industry conferences, and there were no women. These are the days of the mammals, and it’s all white men up there talking, and getting the platforms and speaking. And gender equality was never on the agenda, ever. So this really started the FQ, to make sure that women had a space and a voice at the world’s biggest industry conferences. So, its purest form, that’s what it was. Just to give you an example, at Davos, at the World Economic Forum, when we started our lounge, our Equality Lounge there, only 17% of the attendees were women. So that was in 2016. This past year, in 2023, at our Equality Lounge alone, we had a hundred female speakers. Over two days, we had 3,000 people, majority executive women. And almost, most importantly, we had the men, the executive men, coming and talking on our stages. So we had Jamie Dimon, and a lot of other CEOs. We’ve become, really, a key destination for leaders, for conscious leaders, to come and talk about the equality topics that we need to be talking about. So that gives you an example of who we are at our core. We’ve also been on social media. We’re on everything, but LinkedIn and Instagram are probably our two biggest channels. Also, with that same mission, which is, we want to change the equation, we want to close the gap, and we do that by raising women’s visibility. So we’re out there, telling the stories of women that you need to be hearing about, and I think we’ve found the right tone. We don’t take ourselves too seriously. This is a tough journey that we’re all on, as working women. And there are some things that we can be clever and laugh at, because the struggle is real. We can also support one another. We put out content that’ll give you goosebumps, and you’ll feel really good about. We’ll definitely be talking about some of the most amazing women, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Barbie, the World Cup. What’s happening right now in pop culture is never happened before. There’s a lot of things happening right now in the gender equity space, so we try and keep people on the pulse of that. We are very fortunate, and I still am just so thankful that our community is growing every day. I think right now, we’re about two million people on Instagram, and on LinkedIn, that want to engage with us on these topics. And we’re all very busy women. We are very thoughtful about where we spend our time, and they’re spending it with us. So we’re really excited about that.

Danielle Wiley: I’ve talked about this, but I don’t remember if I’ve talked about it on the podcast or not, but Elisa Camahort, who’s one of the founders of Blogher, I was at some kind of other smaller conference that she was speaking at, and she was talking about the fact that, I mean, Blogher was always very dedicated to women, but they had a problem with diversity. And it was very much white women when they started, and they wanted to make a change. And they were trying to figure, “How do we get more women of color, as attendees to this conference?” She said something that seemed so simple, on the face of it, but I think a lot of people ignore it. They became very, what they had control over was not who was signing up for the conference. What they had control over was who they were bringing in as speakers. And what they acknowledged was that no one’s going to come be an attendee, if they don’t see themselves represented on stage. By taking control of that thing that they had control of, and making a change there, it made, pretty quickly, it took a couple of years, but they made huge inroads, in terms of the overall diversity of their attendance. I just think enough people don’t look at that, and realize you can be intentional, and there are things you can do to make representation real, and a thing, and make a change. And it’s not going to immediately change what Davos looks like, and the perception of it, but you can make real change by being purposeful about it. It’s not going to happen on its own, just by wishes and dreams.

Caroline Dettman: No, of course. And I think it’s twofold. I think what we’ve done from the very beginning, we’ve been very intentional. When we say women, we mean all women. So we have probably the most diverse panels of anyone that I’ve seen out there, but that’s also a reflection of who we are at the FQ. So if you look at our staff, if you look at our talent, we’re a small team, but we have more women of color than not. And we are very, very intentional, in terms of hiring. And we’re still not, by the way perfect, nor will we ever be. If you are authentic about this, this is something that you’re going to work on forever.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah.

Caroline Dettman: So you can never say, “Yeah, oh good, we’re good.” That’s just not how the world works. This year in Cannes, as an example, we took it, this is another thing that I should say about the FQ, that I just always really enjoyed, that I think a lot of people don’t realize, which is, there’s no membership fee to be a part of our community. We want no barrier to entry. Whether you’re joining us on social, or some of our editorial, or LinkedIn Live series, all of the content is free. When you come to a Cannes, and/or a South by Southwest, we know that that’s expensive. And while at South by Southwest and Cannes, we are an official equality partner of theirs, we are an unbadged space. Which by the way, they don’t love, because we’re the only ones, but we insist on it, because we do not want, you don’t have to have a badge, and to incur the cost of a badge, to be a part of our Equality Lounges. So oftentimes, many people will come to our lounges, and they don’t leave our lounges, because they can be there without having to be badged. That’s just a really important piece of it, too. It’s that when we say, “All are welcome,” then you’ve got to get the barriers out of the way, to make sure that that is the case. And then, I was just going to say that at Cannes this year, we did something new. Like I said, you’re never done. We made our space for the first time, and it’s the first time it’s happened in Cannes, we created it for the neurodivergent, and that really hadn’t been done before. As a marketer, and as a brand person, that required us to look at using different fonts and different colors, and different spacing, and all this stuff we do, from a marketing standpoint, that is your Bible, and you don’t mess with it, we mess with it all.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah.

Caroline Dettman: Right? And that’s what you have to do. If you’re going to say that you are welcoming to all, then you better well act on it. So that’s another example of where we’re trying to go. And again, to your point, and we intentionally are bringing speakers that are neurodivergent, right into our lounges, and they were excited that they actually had a place, that finally they felt welcomed in. So I think, the more that we do that and recognizing it’ll be different audiences, because we are a very, very diverse world.

Danielle Wiley: We actually just had a conversation about this topic yesterday. We do quarterly anti-oppression training here at Sway. We were talking about the Barbie movie, and how there was a Barbie of every type, and we got into this little debate. Someone said that it kind of felt like they were just checking off boxes. We have one woman who’s differently abled, and we have one woman who has a different body type, and we have a trans woman. And it felt a little uncomfortable to this person, because it was checking off boxes, and we had a really great dialogue about, yeah, it can sometimes feel forced and weird, to make sure you’re checking off all the boxes, but at the same time, you have to keep checking off all those boxes, because it’s so important to have that representation there. And sometimes it does feel forced, and kind of strange and uncomfortable, and not authentic, but there’s no way to get to that place over the rainbow. Sounds very dramatic, and whatever, but …

Caroline Dettman: Yeah. I happen to agree with you, and I always think of it through children’s eyes. I try and put myself from that position. So instead of thinking about, “Oh, it feels like they’re checking a box, it’s like, will children go to this, and feel like they’re a part of it?” That should be the goal, because for too long, you would have diverse audiences go to things, and not feel included. It’s so important. So I think it’s, frankly, I’d rather have a check the box situation, in all seriousness, for little girls and boys, or non-gender, whatever you are, to feel like they’re included.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah, I agree. Okay, now fun topic, that’s my favorite thing to talk about. You talk a lot about your kids and being a mom on LinkedIn, which I love. And I’m curious to know if you have a philosophy about that, or why you do it, or why you think it’s important, or do you think more of us should do it? (24:59): I know there’s been a lot of controversy. I’ve read a number of articles just this week about, is LinkedIn becoming too personal, and where does that start and end, and what’s okay, and what’s not okay? You are someone who shares personal stuff, so I wanted to hear from you on that.

Caroline Dettman: Yeah, I do. You know what? I do, but I think I do it in the frame, still, of being a working mother. And I think that’s something that we as working moms don’t hear enough of. (25:30): Again, my feeling on social media is, I try and be as vulnerable as I can. And that’s actually a learning that I got from somebody else, who actually reported to me years ago, when I was a young working mother, who thanked me for something that I didn’t even know that I was doing, which was, I was leaving the office, and whether it was early, or right on time, or back in the days when you had a nine to five schedule, whatever. But I would leave the office, and I would say, “I’ve got to go. I’ve got AJ’s hockey game. I’ll see you tomorrow.” Or, “I’ve got a dentist appointment for the kids,” or whatever it was that I would do. It’s really just because I’m a loud person. It wasn’t because I was sharing that intentionally, actually. But it wasn’t until she told me, and she was a younger woman, and she thanked me for doing that. She thought it was intentional. She said, “Because it sets a really good example for being a leader, and that’s okay to do,” and I’ll never forget it. And I remember thinking, “Wow, I really wasn’t intentionally doing that, but I think I should be more intentional about doing it. Clearly, it’s needed.” I think the other thing that’s needed, just in general, from leaders, is just vulnerability. Just in general. I don’t try and share everything. I try and share things on LinkedIn that I think do require some vulnerability, that I haven’t seen a ton written about, but that people can relate to, and people can choose whether or not they want to engage in or not. Sometimes, it’s funny and ridiculous as a working parent’s life is, and sometimes it’s more serious. But I try and find a good balance.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah. So now that you are almost an empty nester, I think you’ve one year left.

Caroline Dettman: I’ve got twins that are seniors, so I’ve got one year left, and then, we’re the empty nesters.

Danielle Wiley: I was just wondering, I mean, we both worked in a busy agency environment when we had little kids, and all the hockey games, and classes and everything, and having to deal with nannies and au pairs, and it’s a very different world than what we’re living in now. So just wondering, as your kids have grown up, how has being a working mother changed for you? I mean, outside of the obvious, you don’t have to run them to a hockey game, because they can take themselves.

Caroline Dettman: Which was very nice, I’m sure you’ll agree. When they get their driver’s license, it’s a wonderful-

Danielle Wiley: Amazing,

Caroline Dettman: [inaudible 00:27:59]. The flip side to that, though, and I don’t know if you experienced this, but as a working mom, I got a lot of good info on those car rides. Because they would talk to me on the car rides, or they’d be with their friends and I would get to hear things. So I did miss that aspect of it, but ultimately it was very good, that I wasn’t having to run around all the time. It’s interesting, because as the kids get older, and I find even now, I almost think they need you more, not less, emotionally. It’s not so physical, certainly. It’s not physical at all, as they get older, but emotionally, for sure. Of course, our kids are similar ages, and so the pandemic hit them at such a pivotal growing stage of their lives. They were middle school and high school age, when so much is supposed to, you’re supposed to be curious, and get to do all these things. And my oldest spent his sophomore and half of his junior year home with us, or the twins, their entire eighth grade year was with us. So there’s a lot of emotional pieces to that, that I don’t even think we will even know how much, from a mental health standpoint, this has all caused, for probably years and years and years. But they needed us. It’s just, with technology, though, it’s a little bit easier. I can talk to, they’d rather text with me, probably, most of the time anyway, let’s be honest.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah.

Caroline Dettman: We’re always in contact, so that really helps. But the pandemic and working remotely, which I was actually doing before the pandemic, I loved, because I was still a presence. (29:40): I really do love that, and I really want that for working women. And I think we’re in a real battle right now, with what is happening with return to Work.

Danielle Wiley: One of the things, I agree with that, absolutely. And we have a four-day work week now, and we’ve always been remote, and it’s always been so important, because so many of our employees are working moms, and having that flexibility, not having to ask permission to run someone to a dentist appointment, or be home with a sick kid. And the one thing I appreciated about the pandemic was that we were able to stop hiding the fact that we were working from home. I feel like before that, we had to be kind of cagey about it. It almost felt like it made us look smaller, and we didn’t want to be those moms sitting at our kitchen table and working. And then, suddenly, everyone was sitting at their kitchen, kitchen table and working, and it made it okay. And that, I appreciate, and will always appreciate, that I kind of open that up, because I do think it’s so important for moms to be able to be involved in that, and dads, to be able to be involved in that way, and make those appointments, and go to the classes, and do all of that.

Caroline Dettman: I agree. I mean, look, I think the pandemic was the greatest social experiment we never wanted, in empathy, certainly, from a leader’s perspective. I mean, the other thing was you were literally coming into each other’s homes, vis-a-vis Zoom with no childcare. We were in so many meetings with little kids and dogs, and whether you were a working dad or working mom, it was all hands on deck, right? So everybody got to see people in a different light. I had higher hopes that we wouldn’t be where we are right now, which is a real drive right now to get people back into the office full-time. Because of that, I think we’ve forgotten a little bit of that as we’ve gone, but I don’t think people are going back. I will say that. I think there’s a real pushback on that approach. So it’s going to be interesting to see what happens.

Danielle Wiley: Yeah, it will, it will. Well, this was awesome. I have one final question, which we end every podcast with, and that is, what was the last thing and that you are influenced to buy, watch, read, or listen to?

Caroline Dettman: Why is this so hard? I buy stuff all the time. Hold on. I’m thinking from a pop culture standpoint. I’m a crazy TV person. I think I’ve seen everything. It’s how I get my release. That’s what I do to release. So sometimes, just really funny, and things that I don’t have to think about. Sometimes, I like ones that really do make me think. So I ask everybody all the time, “What do you have for me, what do you have for me?” And just recently, and I would never have watched this, someone points out to me that I should be watching The Lioness. Have you heard of that one?

Danielle Wiley: Oh, I haven’t heard of it.

Caroline Dettman: And I’ve heard of everything. So I was like, “What? What’s that?” And they said, “Nicole Kidman was in it.” I was like, “What?” Then they said, “Zoe Saldana was in it.” I was like, “What?” I mean, I just, “How have I not heard of this?” And probably the reason is because it’s on Paramount.

Danielle Wiley: Okay.

Caroline Dettman: But it is so interesting, because apparently, well, it’s by the person who does Yellowstone, and I actually don’t enjoy that show. But this is about, essentially, a covert military group of women who infiltrate overseas terrorist organizations as girlfriends/friends undercover, to get to the terrorist. And actually, it’s so good. It’s so good.

Danielle Wiley: Love it. Well, this was amazing. Thank you so much. I’m so glad we finally made this happen. And it was so great to come [inaudible 00:33:41].

Caroline Dettman: You look exactly the same. How is this possible?

Danielle Wiley: Except for the gray hair, you’re not …

Caroline Dettman: Well, no. I mean, listen, I’ve got [inaudible 00:33:47], but I mean … Pretty good.

Danielle Wiley: Thank you, thank you.

Caroline Dettman: Congratulations on all your success.

Danielle Wiley: Seriously, you too. And hopefully, we can do this next in person. That would be great.

Caroline Dettman: That would be cool.

Danielle Wiley: Thank you for listening. Don’t forget to like, share and subscribe.
Please check back next Monday for a new episode featuring candid conversations that explore the power of influence. I am your host, Danielle Wiley, and this is The Art of Sweat.